push steer Vs counter steering

In about five attempts to describe Push steer, all over a newcomer's thread, Bufordt kept messing up push steer. I don't think it is a topic for a new commer. I have read some articles on push steer, they arn't clear either.

One site is good, way down the page is titled push steer, but the guy gets off on riding thru cones for the state test.

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/leanangle2.jpg

Bufordt kept sounding like he was going to hang the back tire way out there and use lots of throttle. I told him that was for gran prix and dirt bike racing. I told him the back tire could grab traction and flip the rider. That is not for a beginner. Here is proof:

http://www.motorcyclesellerz.com/motorcycle-videos.asp

It is a good day to ride, I'll be back much later.

In about five attempts to describe Push steer, all over a newcomer's thread, Bufordt kept messing up push steer. I don't think it is a topic for a new commer. I have read some articles on push steer, they arn't clear either.

One site is good, way down the page is titled push steer, but the guy gets off on riding thru cones for the state test.

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/leanangle2.jpg

Bufordt kept sounding like he was going to hang the back tire way out there and use lots of throttle. I told him that was for gran prix and dirt bike racing. I told him the back tire could grab traction and flip the rider. That is not for a beginner. Here is proof:

http://www.motorcyclesellerz.com/motorcycle-videos.asp

It is a good day to ride, I'll be back much later.

But if you are not using counter steering when you ride your motorcycle, then it is you who is giving dangerous advice. No where in any of my answers did I advocate hanging the back tire way out there. All I said was that counter steering is the proper way to steer a motorcycle. If your skill level is not at a place where you cannot steer your motorcycle by counter steering and or throttle control, I suggest that you go out and practice. Go ahead and go into a corner a little spirited and try to pull your way through and or grab a handfull of brakes and see exactly what happens. Let me know when and where you will be doing it so that I can use the oppurtunity to make an instructional video on how not to ride a motorcycle, and make sure to give me the contact numbers of your next of kin. They will more than likely need to be notified. Better yet, go to a track day at your local track and have a professional teach you how to negotiate corners without killing yourself.

Show me exactly what five attempts I screwed up the explanation and I will gladly admit to it and correct my "messing up".

Lets go for a ride sometime, maybe we can learn a thing or two from each other. I am always in for a learning experience.

I never advocate a rider riding a bike beyony their skills or beyond the capabilities of their bike. I have over 25 years of riding experience under my belt and have taught numerous people how to ride. And I can say in all honesty, none of those that were taught by me has ever had an at fault accident or had their safety compromised by my instructions.

You are right, it is a nice day. I think I will take my 5 year old for a ride. And yes I will be using counter steering on my Ultra with him aboard.

Hey guys. I don't moderate often, and it's even less often that I moderate a moderator... but this is turning into a pissing contest. Let's let it go, okay?

I think the best advice was given in the other thread where it was recommended that everybody be concious of their steering techniques. Understand what you are doing and why. It'll make you a better and safer rider. Beyond that, we can moan all day about who said what and nitpick this subject to death, and nobody will be any better for it.

Thread closed.

Hey guys. I don't moderate often, and it's even less often that I moderate a moderator... but this is turning into a pissing contest. Let's let it go, okay?

I think the best advice was given in the other thread where it was recommended that everybody be concious of their steering techniques. Understand what you are doing and why. It'll make you a better and safer rider. Beyond that, we can moan all day about who said what and nitpick this subject to death, and nobody will be any better for it.

Thread closed.

Just had a bad day. Left my anger get the best of me. I will apologize to crawford in private.

That is the past, so let's hear some more about counter steering.

The thing about Push Stear and or counter steer is that it confuses the hell out of instructors and students. It is not for beginners. It makes you lean too far and requires a 'clean' surface. It is a word phrase that was coined recently to describe what has been going on since high wheel peddle bikes. It doesn't work on older model Segways. It works backwards on the newest model Segway. There is no gyroscope in a motorcycle. The wheels have so little gyroscopic force, it isn't measureable. The ballance is in the rider's middle ear, visual cues, and brain. What really maters is the lateral roll, lead and rake. Lateral roll is the lean angle. Lead is the distance from the forks to the front axle. Rake is the angle of the forks to the ground, usually about 29 degrees. Sport bikes have a smaller rake angle. Choppers have a large rake angle. The motorcycle must be in motion to have a righting force. Counter steering overcomes the righting force to begin (and end) a turn. It doesn't really work well at very very low speeds, like the cone test. There you are using steering to keep the motorcycle under you.

To begin a right (left) turn at speed it is sometimes advantagious to make the motorcycle lean for you by turning breifly slightly left (right). To end the right (left) turn it is neccessary to have the motorcycle under you, turn right (left) the motorcycle ends its lean.

Counter steering can be used to overcome or complement the righting force of the steering geometry (lead and rake). I am very comfortable with the steering geometry that I have now. I'm not in the market for 'flip ability' or any of that new marketing stuff. This discussion does not belong in a new commers thread. Nor does any of that "dead right there" talk belong in a new comer's thread. It is a good topic, worthy of discussion. It is not worth apologys or hurt feelings. Counter steer takes a little geting used to, just like a couple dozen super moderators I've started to enjoy.

c.crawford, did you write this article?
http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html

It says it's written by By James R. Davis. His decription of 'Rake Geometry' is a lot more detailed. But he is flat wrong when he writes about the gyroscopic force of the front wheel. Over all it is a good article.

It says it's written by By James R. Davis. His decription of 'Rake Geometry' is a lot more detailed. But he is flat wrong when he writes about the gyroscopic force of the front wheel. Over all it is a good article.

when I originally tried to answer the post from the original poster. While we may not all agree with the terminology, or the explanation of same, counter steering or push steering is a daily reality for anyone riding a bike. Without a doubt, 99.99 percent of all bikers who ride practice it without even realising it. If they did not, there would be a lot less of us out there. I stand by my original posts. I practice counter steering each and every time that I ride my bike. And I still after 27 tears of riding on the street and 36 in the dirt, counter steer my bikes. try steering without it at speed. After the road rash heals post and let us know the results.

A better way of understanding push steering is to conciously try *not* to do it, or to do it in the opposite fashion of the way it works. Try pushing on the right hand bar in a left hand curve. You're likely to find yourself in a ditch in short order.

I talked in length to a MSF instructor at lenght about this very concept just a week ago, and even he admitted that it is one of the hardest concepts to get into the heads of even experienced riders. It absolutely does not make sense if you are thinking about it when you are sitting still. The concept is as foreign as hitting the L key on the keyboard with the finger you use to hit the S key with. It's exactly opposite to common logic, but it is reality... it is used everyday by everybody who rides a motorcycle... most people just dont realize they are doing it.

The concious observation of it however can be detrimental. I for one have found that my riding style gets a bit more aggressive when I realize that I have push steering in my arsenal. Between slinging my weight and using hard push steering, I can handle turns on the Fatboy that would normally cause the frame to slap the asphalt hard enough to kick the back wheel off the ground. This might not be good for a novice on a bike though, so perhaps this discussion, as has already been mentioned, is not appropriate for "impressionable minds".

Push steering in general needs to be understood as a functional property of handling a bike, but agressive push steering, as crawford has stated, is best reserved for the tracks. ;)

A better way of understanding push steering is to conciously try *not* to do it, or to do it in the opposite fashion of the way it works. Try pushing on the right hand bar in a left hand curve. You're likely to find yourself in a ditch in short order.

I talked in length to a MSF instructor at lenght about this very concept just a week ago, and even he admitted that it is one of the hardest concepts to get into the heads of even experienced riders. It absolutely does not make sense if you are thinking about it when you are sitting still. The concept is as foreign as hitting the L key on the keyboard with the finger you use to hit the S key with. It's exactly opposite to common logic, but it is reality... it is used everyday by everybody who rides a motorcycle... most people just dont realize they are doing it.

The concious observation of it however can be detrimental. I for one have found that my riding style gets a bit more aggressive when I realize that I have push steering in my arsenal. Between slinging my weight and using hard push steering, I can handle turns on the Fatboy that would normally cause the frame to slap the asphalt hard enough to kick the back wheel off the ground. This might not be good for a novice on a bike though, so perhaps this discussion, as has already been mentioned, is not appropriate for "impressionable minds".

Push steering in general needs to be understood as a functional property of handling a bike, but agressive push steering, as crawford has stated, is best reserved for the tracks. ;)

Just realize that you do use it, but try not to be conscience about it. I do not usually try to explain this whole concept to novices until and unless I believe that they are ready for it, or if I ride with them and believe that they are in dire need of it. I agree with Crawford that the whole thing is way beyond the grasp of most riders. I also agree with BigWater that without it mor ewill get hurt or worse. Counter steering is as natural as lifting your leg to put it over the seat. You do it without thinking about it. But fail to do either and you WILL fall down. Those of us who know the concept and the reality ofthe whole process are better riders because of it. But like Big was alluding to not only can it get you out of trouble, it will get you int trouble.

okay.. I ain't kidding here. I get the counter steering. I get the physics behind it . I noticed when I first started rideing on the road that was the easiest way to take turns. But this push steering thing has got me by he bag so I sollow up with this qestion.

HUH? is push steering sort of like drifting? Or am I way off target. Don't beafraid to let me in. I"m safty minded

Push steering... counter steering... it's the same thing, just different terminology. It's the act of turning the front wheel in the opposite direction of the curve you're leaning into.

thanks for clearing that up for me. I hate not being up to speed on something. I do see why that would be confusinf to some people. It makes sense though. even if your sitting idle and lean the bike the wheel has a natural tendency to turn in that direction.

Yes, push steer the idea that you push down on the handle grip on the inside of the curve you want to go while moving. Counter steer, you can ride the motorcycle up underneath you even at extreemly slow speeds. Flick-ability, a Harley salesman term: is just to make S curves sound easy, and they can be easy and fun.

The bigger rule: Don't make a newbie eat pavement!

To me when riding relaxed, it is just as easy to steer with my butt cheeks and foot pegs. My hands are just ready for the brakes, clutch and throttle. My eyes are watching for any movement, traffic, peds, animals, anything.

In the first clip in the first post, at 52 seconds, that back tire bites and stands up for no reason throwing the rider off. That was the misconception. That isn't riding like a newbie's instructor should say.

To me when riding relaxed, it is just as easy to steer with my butt cheeks and foot pegs. My hands are just ready for the brakes, clutch and throttle. My eyes are watching for any movement, traffic, peds, animals, anything.



When under 100%+ power drag racing, those handlebars seem only useful for providing a place to mount the clutch lever and throttle. I'm pretty certain I'm steering with my ass and body english.

You got that right FX. In all of my years on top gas bikes i don't think the front wheel was ever on the ground for more than the last 1/4 of the track. The rest of the time the bike was on the rear tire and the wheelie bar. Steering was always done by slinging your ass around.

It's awfully disconcerting when the front wheel is a couple of inches off the ground and the back end gets squirley on you. I always hated new rear slicks because inevitably the damn things would want to go everywhere but straight, and I'd spend the whole damn run slinging my ass from one side of the bike to the other trying to keep it straight. Thank god for hydraulic dampening on the front steering or I really would have been in trouble.

That is the one caveat on the street bike without damping. I can feel if I turn the bars at all while the wheel is up and they are as loose as a goose and easily moved if you don't pay attention.

But if it's not too far out, you can feel it get put straight as it comes back down. Being able to allow it and not control it is quite the leap of faith. Gotta trust the science.

It's been about 8 years since I took a light. I need some bracket time I guess this summer. The streets are not safe for me cause I never really look up and need to know the road should be clear.

That brings up another motorcycle training tip, "look down, go down". I can't even begin to explain how that is true and I know it, yet what I do when drag racing for the first few seconds.

When you're running 180 mph when the front wheel comes down, it doesn't take much misalignment to really mess you up. I always kept the dampeners torqued down hard so the bars were a real bear to move. It's all about the launch when you're going those speeds, and coming out of the water box to the line pointed straight down the track is just as important as what you do after the tree turns green.

Are we getting off topic here? Sorry.

You crazy guys do your dragging, I like my cruising much more. Call me balless, I just happen to like to keep both wheels on the road.