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push steer Vs counter steering
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Thread: push steer Vs counter steering

  1. #1

    push steer Vs counter steering

    In about five attempts to describe Push steer, all over a newcomer's thread, Bufordt kept messing up push steer. I don't think it is a topic for a new commer. I have read some articles on push steer, they arn't clear either.

    One site is good, way down the page is titled push steer, but the guy gets off on riding thru cones for the state test.



    Bufordt kept sounding like he was going to hang the back tire way out there and use lots of throttle. I told him that was for gran prix and dirt bike racing. I told him the back tire could grab traction and flip the rider. That is not for a beginner. Here is proof:

    http://www.motorcyclesellerz.com/motorcycle-videos.asp

    It is a good day to ride, I'll be back much later.

  2. #2
    Lost bufordtpisser's Avatar
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    Say what you will.................................

    Quote Originally Posted by c.crawford
    In about five attempts to describe Push steer, all over a newcomer's thread, Bufordt kept messing up push steer. I don't think it is a topic for a new commer. I have read some articles on push steer, they arn't clear either.

    One site is good, way down the page is titled push steer, but the guy gets off on riding thru cones for the state test.



    Bufordt kept sounding like he was going to hang the back tire way out there and use lots of throttle. I told him that was for gran prix and dirt bike racing. I told him the back tire could grab traction and flip the rider. That is not for a beginner. Here is proof:

    http://www.motorcyclesellerz.com/motorcycle-videos.asp

    It is a good day to ride, I'll be back much later.
    But if you are not using counter steering when you ride your motorcycle, then it is you who is giving dangerous advice. No where in any of my answers did I advocate hanging the back tire way out there. All I said was that counter steering is the proper way to steer a motorcycle. If your skill level is not at a place where you cannot steer your motorcycle by counter steering and or throttle control, I suggest that you go out and practice. Go ahead and go into a corner a little spirited and try to pull your way through and or grab a handfull of brakes and see exactly what happens. Let me know when and where you will be doing it so that I can use the oppurtunity to make an instructional video on how not to ride a motorcycle, and make sure to give me the contact numbers of your next of kin. They will more than likely need to be notified. Better yet, go to a track day at your local track and have a professional teach you how to negotiate corners without killing yourself.

    Show me exactly what five attempts I screwed up the explanation and I will gladly admit to it and correct my "messing up".

    Lets go for a ride sometime, maybe we can learn a thing or two from each other. I am always in for a learning experience.

    I never advocate a rider riding a bike beyony their skills or beyond the capabilities of their bike. I have over 25 years of riding experience under my belt and have taught numerous people how to ride. And I can say in all honesty, none of those that were taught by me has ever had an at fault accident or had their safety compromised by my instructions.

    You are right, it is a nice day. I think I will take my 5 year old for a ride. And yes I will be using counter steering on my Ultra with him aboard.

  3. #3
    Permanent Fixture bigwater's Avatar
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    Hey guys. I don't moderate often, and it's even less often that I moderate a moderator... but this is turning into a pissing contest. Let's let it go, okay?

    I think the best advice was given in the other thread where it was recommended that everybody be concious of their steering techniques. Understand what you are doing and why. It'll make you a better and safer rider. Beyond that, we can moan all day about who said what and nitpick this subject to death, and nobody will be any better for it.

    Thread closed.
    Never twist the throttle with your ego

  4. #4
    Lost bufordtpisser's Avatar
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    Agreed...........

    Quote Originally Posted by bigwater
    Hey guys. I don't moderate often, and it's even less often that I moderate a moderator... but this is turning into a pissing contest. Let's let it go, okay?

    I think the best advice was given in the other thread where it was recommended that everybody be concious of their steering techniques. Understand what you are doing and why. It'll make you a better and safer rider. Beyond that, we can moan all day about who said what and nitpick this subject to death, and nobody will be any better for it.

    Thread closed.
    Just had a bad day. Left my anger get the best of me. I will apologize to crawford in private.

  5. #5
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    That is the past, so let's hear some more about counter steering.
    "What does it mean to you? For me, it's something I just do."

  6. #6
    The thing about Push Stear and or counter steer is that it confuses the hell out of instructors and students. It is not for beginners. It makes you lean too far and requires a 'clean' surface. It is a word phrase that was coined recently to describe what has been going on since high wheel peddle bikes. It doesn't work on older model Segways. It works backwards on the newest model Segway. There is no gyroscope in a motorcycle. The wheels have so little gyroscopic force, it isn't measureable. The ballance is in the rider's middle ear, visual cues, and brain. What really maters is the lateral roll, lead and rake. Lateral roll is the lean angle. Lead is the distance from the forks to the front axle. Rake is the angle of the forks to the ground, usually about 29 degrees. Sport bikes have a smaller rake angle. Choppers have a large rake angle. The motorcycle must be in motion to have a righting force. Counter steering overcomes the righting force to begin (and end) a turn. It doesn't really work well at very very low speeds, like the cone test. There you are using steering to keep the motorcycle under you.

    To begin a right (left) turn at speed it is sometimes advantagious to make the motorcycle lean for you by turning breifly slightly left (right). To end the right (left) turn it is neccessary to have the motorcycle under you, turn right (left) the motorcycle ends its lean.

    Counter steering can be used to overcome or complement the righting force of the steering geometry (lead and rake). I am very comfortable with the steering geometry that I have now. I'm not in the market for 'flip ability' or any of that new marketing stuff. This discussion does not belong in a new commers thread. Nor does any of that "dead right there" talk belong in a new comer's thread. It is a good topic, worthy of discussion. It is not worth apologys or hurt feelings. Counter steer takes a little geting used to, just like a couple dozen super moderators I've started to enjoy.
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  7. #7
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    c.crawford, did you write this article?
    http://www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html

  8. #8
    It says it's written by By James R. Davis. His decription of 'Rake Geometry' is a lot more detailed. But he is flat wrong when he writes about the gyroscopic force of the front wheel. Over all it is a good article.
    Promote Hunanism (extra spicey)

  9. #9
    Lost bufordtpisser's Avatar
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    That is one of the articles that I quoted.............

    Quote Originally Posted by c.crawford
    It says it's written by By James R. Davis. His decription of 'Rake Geometry' is a lot more detailed. But he is flat wrong when he writes about the gyroscopic force of the front wheel. Over all it is a good article.
    when I originally tried to answer the post from the original poster. While we may not all agree with the terminology, or the explanation of same, counter steering or push steering is a daily reality for anyone riding a bike. Without a doubt, 99.99 percent of all bikers who ride practice it without even realising it. If they did not, there would be a lot less of us out there. I stand by my original posts. I practice counter steering each and every time that I ride my bike. And I still after 27 tears of riding on the street and 36 in the dirt, counter steer my bikes. try steering without it at speed. After the road rash heals post and let us know the results.

  10. #10
    Permanent Fixture bigwater's Avatar
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    A better way of understanding push steering is to conciously try *not* to do it, or to do it in the opposite fashion of the way it works. Try pushing on the right hand bar in a left hand curve. You're likely to find yourself in a ditch in short order.

    I talked in length to a MSF instructor at lenght about this very concept just a week ago, and even he admitted that it is one of the hardest concepts to get into the heads of even experienced riders. It absolutely does not make sense if you are thinking about it when you are sitting still. The concept is as foreign as hitting the L key on the keyboard with the finger you use to hit the S key with. It's exactly opposite to common logic, but it is reality... it is used everyday by everybody who rides a motorcycle... most people just dont realize they are doing it.

    The concious observation of it however can be detrimental. I for one have found that my riding style gets a bit more aggressive when I realize that I have push steering in my arsenal. Between slinging my weight and using hard push steering, I can handle turns on the Fatboy that would normally cause the frame to slap the asphalt hard enough to kick the back wheel off the ground. This might not be good for a novice on a bike though, so perhaps this discussion, as has already been mentioned, is not appropriate for "impressionable minds".

    Push steering in general needs to be understood as a functional property of handling a bike, but agressive push steering, as crawford has stated, is best reserved for the tracks.
    Never twist the throttle with your ego

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